Posts by Giles Gray

15

Hello

by midnight in

jw
friends

hi i am posting for the first time although i've been looking for a few years , i was born into a witness family left when i was 12 with my parents went back at 22 pioneered became ms started to have major doubts around 2002 when there was a lot of talk about blood fractions etc have been hit and miss since i'm extremely mentally confused as to wether or not this really is jehovah's earthly organisation , i find life hard facing up to mortality etc not having the new system hope , what nailed your decision to leave ?

how did you cope with world problems on news etc ?

how did you fill the void ?

Giles Gray

Hello Midnight.

The disorientation and stress you are feeling at the moment is a totally natural part of the process of waking up from being a JW, even though it won't feel like it right now.

The answers to your questions will come in time. This time next year you will be in a much better place.

In the mean time you will need to do a lot of reading and processing. Waking up from being a JW is a huge shock. Healing from the resulting hurt is vital and happens at its own pace.

Reconciliation to your new circumstances of mortality, world problems, etc, is a personal thing. What works for one person might not work for another. Right now might not be the best time to address such issues. Ridding yourself of indocrination might be a better thing to focus on.

Getting support is probably the most important thing you need right now, so making friends with people who are going through, or have gone through the same thing is very important.

I hope it all works out well for you.

Keep posting.

35

Im Going To Approach A Witnessing Cart Today

by pale.emperor in

the city in which i work is flooded with those witnessing carts.

today im going to approach one of them and pretend i dont know what they believe.

gonna try and record it if i can.

Giles Gray

I like the question:

"What would it take to prove your faith isn't true?"

Gives you a great head start.

50

Crisis of Conscience: December 12, 2015 - 50 weeks later

by Jehalapeno in

jw
friends

on december 12, 2015 this statement was made by the copyright holder:.

i am presently considering three different routes to publishing crisis of conscience.

i hope to make a decision within days and plan to publish within weeks.. it has now been 50 weeks since that statement.. has the book been published yet?

Giles Gray

If it's true that the Copyright Holder is being bribed in any way by the society then any money that is contributed is effectively being given to the society.

I think I would have to know for sure what's going on before making a contribution.

24

Hello everyone

by Lancashirelass in

jw
friends

i just wanted to add my name to the many number of people who have awakened from the cult.

i have been lurking for probably 2 years now.

and i'm quite certain there are many more lurking and reading just like me.. i have to be honest and say that i most likely will not be contributing much to the discussion board.

Giles Gray

In my defence I am a bit tipsy ha ha

A little early in the day...?

Well done for a successful fade.

Never easy for a 3rd generation.

129

Hi forum

by A Believer in

i proably shouldnt be on here but i feel like saying this.

i have been for the last couple weeks been studying religion.

i've learned the only ones who today do what the bible says to is jw.

Giles Gray

A Believer.

If you think the JWs have the truth why don't you just bugger off to the kingdom hall rather than bang on about what you believe with the good people of this forum?

Most on here see it for the bullshit that it is.

129

Hi forum

by A Believer in

i proably shouldnt be on here but i feel like saying this.

i have been for the last couple weeks been studying religion.

i've learned the only ones who today do what the bible says to is jw.

Giles Gray

"... the only ones who today do what the Bible says..."

As the bible is provable bullshit, so what if they do what the bible says?

14

Question for Christians: What Religion are You Now?

by LaurenM in

i know many on here are atheist.

but for the christians on here...what religion are you now that you are no longer a jw?

i'm still undecided as to whether i believe in god.

Giles Gray

LaurenM -"I'm still undecided as to whether I believe in God. I have been doing a lot of research on evolution. However, I want to delve into creationism"

The theory of evolution doesn't rule out a creator. Some theists reconcile the two.

8

JWs- “SCIENCE IS A DISTRACTION TO MY FAITH"

by Giles Gray in

“after our discussion last week i asked myself ‘do i need to go into the depth of science to make sure of what i believe’, and my answer was that i don’t need to go into science because science would be a distraction to what i already know with my faith…”the above is a quote from a conversation i had with two jws who called on me at the weekend.

i knew that the standards of the jws had declined, but what i experienced the weekend really highlighted that fact and it was quite a surprised.amazingly they came back, but this time i had the presence of mind to record the entire visit which is really going to help me examine how these people think.they were coming back on the topic of the evidence of evolution and how this contradicts their interpretation of the bible.

i had sent them an email that dealt with the topic of nature’s vestiges and i asked them to explain the biological atavisms that occur in whales and humans.

Giles Gray

Heartsafire -" While they walk away thinking they are 'right' they now have learned a few basics of evolution"

I get the feeling that when they leave they have not got the feeling they are 'right'. Just their manner is a big give away. They are very much on a back foot.

But they deffinatly have had a huge learning curve on the topic of evolution.

I was surprised they didnt know that dolphins can't breath underwater though. Most children would have known that.

Heaven

What a great video. Funnily, in an attempt to get a point across, I have been using similar comments about the teachings and beliefs of other religions.

I will pick a point that I know the JWs won't agree with and then I highlight the fact that the other religion will vehemently defend an unreasonable position.

I then turn the same reasoning on what they believe, to highlight why I don't agree with what the JWs are telling me. I'm finding this tactic works very well.

I'm now looking forward to next weekend's visit. They wish to talk about the bible this time. They will think they are on safe ground. It will be interesting...

8

JWs- “SCIENCE IS A DISTRACTION TO MY FAITH"

by Giles Gray in

“after our discussion last week i asked myself ‘do i need to go into the depth of science to make sure of what i believe’, and my answer was that i don’t need to go into science because science would be a distraction to what i already know with my faith…”the above is a quote from a conversation i had with two jws who called on me at the weekend.

i knew that the standards of the jws had declined, but what i experienced the weekend really highlighted that fact and it was quite a surprised.amazingly they came back, but this time i had the presence of mind to record the entire visit which is really going to help me examine how these people think.they were coming back on the topic of the evidence of evolution and how this contradicts their interpretation of the bible.

i had sent them an email that dealt with the topic of nature’s vestiges and i asked them to explain the biological atavisms that occur in whales and humans.

Giles Gray

Sorry for not getting back to everyone sooner. I've had a bad eye infection.

Half banana -" ... I think you had a very good approach to stick to things which the WT has no sensible comment on, namely the evidence for evolution in atavistic organs etc"

Thank you. Having left many years ago, I no longer have any need to confront the JWs with 'apostate' topics like I did when it was all still raw.

These days, as an ex-ex-JW, I tend to approach debating with JWs more from the vantage point of an anthropological study. I love to see how the JWs deal with subjects I know they have no answers to, not even in their societies literature.

I can't agee with you more about people learning geology at school. I don't know what the curriculum teaches nowadays, but even if schools taught each period from the Cambrian era onwards, it would be a great exposure of the true history of life as opposed to the biblical creation account.

Vidiot -" Hit me like a ton of bricks, immediately followed by the question, "are they crazy, or just plain stupid*???"

Ha! I understand your sentiments, but I'm not sure they are either 'crazy' (in the classical sense) or 'stupid'.

I believe these JWs are wilfully ignorant. These people calling on me are very intelligent, as were the Mormons who called on me a few months prior.

I'm sure if they studied the evidence objectively they would be able to fully grasp the implications of the points I am making.

I think they are all too aware of that. It is that reason they refain from investigating further. I am just surprised they would so blatantly reveal such a stance to someone in the ministry. Quite a confession.

8

JWs- “SCIENCE IS A DISTRACTION TO MY FAITH"

by Giles Gray in

“after our discussion last week i asked myself ‘do i need to go into the depth of science to make sure of what i believe’, and my answer was that i don’t need to go into science because science would be a distraction to what i already know with my faith…”the above is a quote from a conversation i had with two jws who called on me at the weekend.

i knew that the standards of the jws had declined, but what i experienced the weekend really highlighted that fact and it was quite a surprised.amazingly they came back, but this time i had the presence of mind to record the entire visit which is really going to help me examine how these people think.they were coming back on the topic of the evidence of evolution and how this contradicts their interpretation of the bible.

i had sent them an email that dealt with the topic of nature’s vestiges and i asked them to explain the biological atavisms that occur in whales and humans.

Giles Gray

“After our discussion last week I asked myself ‘do I need to go into the depth of science to make sure of what I believe’, and my answer was that I don’t need to go into science because science would be a distraction to what I already know with my faith…”

The above is a quote from a conversation I had with two JWs who called on me at the weekend. I knew that the standards of the JWs had declined, but what I experienced the weekend really highlighted that fact and it was quite a surprised.

Amazingly they came back, but this time I had the presence of mind to record the entire visit which is really going to help me examine how these people think.

They were coming back on the topic of the evidence of evolution and how this contradicts their interpretation of the bible. I had sent them an email that dealt with the topic of nature’s vestiges and I asked them to explain the biological atavisms that occur in whales and humans. I also asked them to look at a video that went into the laryngeal nerve in giraffes. This was in response to the claim of intelligent design. All very controversial topics that I thought they should know about. They had said on their previous visit that they had never heard of these vestiges, so it was going to be interesting to see how they coped with such facts of nature.

One of the reasons why it was going to be so interesting is the fact that there is nothing in their literature that tackles the topics that I had sent them. So what were they going to do without the help and support of the Watchtower?

It didn’t take too long to find out. The first thing they did when they came back at the weekend was to read me something from a creationist website. What stood out to me was when the JW read from the creationist website, it was evident that she didn’t have a clue what she was reading. She struggled to pronounce some of the technical words in the article and you could tell from the way that she was reading it that she didn’t understand the implications of what the article was saying.

Because I suspected that they didn’t understand it, the first question I asked them both was how they felt about it. They were stumped. The best they could do was just to repeat a few phrases that they could remember from what the girl had just read and say that it stood to reason in relation to the information I had sent them.

The ensuing conversation ended up more of a lesson about the basics of the theory of evolution than it did a debate about the technicalities of the specifics that I had challenged them with two weeks previously. I found it very disappointing, but I half expected it at the same time.

What was astounding was how bold their opinion was on a topic that they were clearly ignorant of. I don’t mean that as a pejorative. But what they said exposed just how little they knew about even the most elementary facts of the Theory of Evolution.

Some of their misperceptions were very clichéd. For example, one misconception they came out with was the idea that evolution was the beginning of life. From that point they promoted the idea that evolution requires faith. They then went on to ask why evolution is only a ‘Theory’. Later on, they claimed that the theory of evolution teaches that man evolved from chimpanzees and monkeys and they asked me why there is no evidence that we are evolving from chimpanzees and monkeys today.

Their lack of knowledge was far below a general education. At one point we were talking about how the migration of dolphins came about from land animals to sea dwelling creatures. One of the JWs thought that they had a winning point to make by saying that land animals have a completely different breathing system to dolphins. She pointed out to me that land animals can’t breath under water. She was totally shocked when I replied to her the fact that dolphins can’t breath under water either. It was one of the many moments when they were stunned. She honestly didn’t know that dolphins breath air through a blow hole. That is quite shocking ignorance of the natural world. She honestly thought that dolphins were the same as fish. It made no impression when I explained that dolphins were mammalian and fish were not.

They talked to me about the fact that a fish can’t breath out of water. They said that “the minute the fish comes out of water it would no longer be able to breath and would (subsequently) die”. She had no concept that sea creatures living by the side of the water would have adapted to breathing air long before they migrated onto land.

We then went onto the topic of cross breading of species. This point always tends to bring out the paradox in their belief. It would be interesting to see how they would cope with this paradox, but until they understand the fundamental aspects of the theory of evolution, they are never going to be able to recognise the obvious paradox their belief has.

Their answer to cross breading is to point out that the bible speaks of creating ‘kinds’. So they claim that a donkey and a horse are the same ‘kind’ of animal as described in the bible. They also claimed that a lion and a tiger are also of the same ‘kind’.

But when challenged with the fact that these separate species can bring forth offspring, they went onto use the phrase ‘mutations’ to describe these hybrids. But later on they claimed these animals are ‘kinds’ and they are “one and the same”. So if these species of animals have diversity in the same ‘kind’, doesn’t that mean they are evolving? If Noah only took on the ark one ‘kind’ of animal, how come there are so many variations of species now?

But it got better. They talked about the cross bread that results from mating a lion with a tiger, otherwise known as a liger. They went on to tell me all about the fact that a liger has a shorter life span than a lion or a tiger and are generally not as healthy. They didn’t see the obvious contradiction that comes from this fact. If these cats are the same ‘kind’, why is it that the liger is weaker than both the lion and the tiger from which it comes from? If lions and tigers are just one ‘kind’, there should be no detrimental effect from breading from the separate species of that one ‘kind’. So why does this happen? Why is a mule born infertile if it is the result of two of the same ‘kind’ of animal? This point they are making actually undermines their own belief in animal ‘kinds’.

I had to explain what abiogenesis is on a few occasions during the hour and a half conversation. They had never heard of the word before and I had to keep referring back to it to iron out their confusion regarding creation and evolution.

So with all of the above points in place, one of the JWs said that even though finding out about all these things was interesting, and they confessed that some of the points I had made they had never heard of, there was nothing that they looked into that would cause them to change their faith. I made the point that it wouldn’t. But then I asked them why a god would make a whale with legs. She just said that it didn’t change her position on her beliefs. She said that the tail on humans can happen and that it is nothing out of the ordinary.

To make these conclusions in spite of the fact she obviously had no idea why she was rejecting them was very audacious. Their ignorance of the subject matter was stark, but it didn’t stop them just rejecting it anyway.

But then came the confession that exposes it all. What she said next explains their position very comprehensively. She said to me that after the last time they came to see me, she had asked herself if she now had to go into the deep and complex subject of science to be able to be sure that what she believes in is right. She then said that she realised that she doesn’t have to. She said that she doesn’t need to know everything about science. Her friend chimed in and said that it was too hard. They then said that there is so much to learn and that science was such a distraction from what they had already leaned about god, there is just too much to go into. One of them said that she would look into evolution if she found something that would cause her to question, and she would keep digging and keep going. But because there were some scientists that had studied evolution who had claimed to have seen so many inconsistencies, these scientists had decided to give the bible a chance and when they went through the bible they knew it was from god.

So as they had said that they didn’t feel the need to go into science they then tried to claim that they had been taught science when they had gone to school and they had been exposed to what the curriculum had taught them but they had found it very biased against creation. I didn’t bring up this point, but if they had learned anything about evolution, then the very simple facts that I was discussing with them would have been known. The fact that they had never heard of atavisms or abiogenesis shows that they really didn’t take in what they were being taught and that is why they were ignorant to these topics now.

But they honestly thought that what they learned at school and what they had learned on the internet was sufficient enough for them to reject the idea of evolution. The transparency as to why they were saying this was all too evident.

So then one of them confessed that because they have a personal relationship with god, to say that life wasn’t created was hurtful and that they were fulfilled in the knowledge they have already and they were not going to be waived by what evolutionists say or what evolutionists prove because there has been so many theories that have been readdressed in later years and they have been found to be incorrect or scientists change their theories.

Near to the end they said that they wanted “solid evidence” of evolution for them to change their mind with regards their faith. At this point I ask them what ‘solid evidence’ they are looking for. They had no answer apart from ‘solid evidence’. The only thing I can think of that would give them the evidence they require is for something to evolve right in front of them. That is the only thing that would convince them, and I’m sure that if that was even possible they would disregard that as well. The situation was impossible.

So in summery, they used their ignorance of the subject matter as a means to disregard it. They thought that they didn’t need to know about the evidence that would contradict their faith because if they were to find out about it then it would upset what they already have with their faith and that was not a situation they were happy to subject themselves to.

What a great way to face the challenge of evidence that disproves their belief. Don’t even bother looking at it just in case it contradicts what they already believe. I’m speechless.